The message of Christ

Merry Christmas!

Merry Christmas too you too!
Christmas is nice.
With the tree and the shiny orbs in it.

@kingsgambit2883 said in #19:

There are more sources for Jesus then Julius Caesar, including contemporaries who had no ulterior motive for his existence.

First off, i have never once mentioned Julius Cesar, mostly, because he died on March 15, 44 BC, which would be prior to Jesus purported day of birth. You might want to think over your proficiency at reading comprehension.

Second, if there are "more sources" - just name one of these "contemporary sources".

The question is not whether he existed, but if he was truly theson of god

This is not really a question: show me one true, living god and i will reconsider, but as far as his (rather: his writers) claim to be god goes, this is about as believable as me claiming i am Superman.

In fact no single attribute ascribed to this guy wasn't already there in previous cults and was simply copied and stolen from these cults.

• died and woke up three days after: Osiris
• was son of a god and was killed for redemption: Aeskulap, Osiris
• healed the sick: Aeskulap, Dionysos
• people get to ritually consume him: Dionysos, greek mysterianism

I can go on and on.

@MetzerMetzger said in #20:

If you look at the history like you describe it, it's hard to imagine how christianity could ever have become such a big thing.

If you look at history that way, then i wonder how Fascism ever became such a big thing - maybe "Mein Kampf" is right, after all?

Even if there was an actual person at the source of it all, what good could it possibly do?
We got 2 warridden millennia, which we would have had anyway,

Just for example: torture was absolutely banned in the roman jurisdiction, because - as many contemporary commentators in the Codex Justinianus mention, you won't get reliable answers: given enough force one would admit to anything and its opposite just to make it stop. Compare that to what the inquisition did and how they routinely used torture of previously unseen extremity.

And where is a source for "having the 2 warridden millenias anyway"? If i beat you up, might i then claim that it was ineveitable one way or the other anyway? and exonerate myself that way?

On another angle: on Xmas we celebrate Jesus' birth. Now, this might be the true date or not, but that is not the point: if he ever lived he has to be born on some day. On the other hand, at easter we celebrate the day of Jesus' killing and resurrection. May i ask how that could be on another day every year?

@Nomen-Nonatur I completely agree with you.
And as you say regarding fascism, these junkcastles can pop up from anywhere, and stick right through the world like shards of glass.

@Nomen-Nonatur said in #23:

First off, i have never once mentioned Julius Cesar, mostly, because he died on March 15, 44 BC, which would be prior to Jesus purported day of birth. You might want to think over your proficiency at reading comprehension.

Second, if there are "more sources" - just name one of these "contemporary sources".

This is not really a question: show me one true, living god and i will reconsider, but as far as his (rather: his writers) claim to be god goes, this is about as believable as me claiming i am Superman.

In fact no single attribute ascribed to this guy wasn't already there in previous cults and was simply copied and stolen from these cults.

• died and woke up three days after: Osiris
• was son of a god and was killed for redemption: Aeskulap, Osiris
• healed the sick: Aeskulap, Dionysos
• people get to ritually consume him: Dionysos, greek mysterianism

I can go on and on.

If you look at history that way, then i wonder how Fascism ever became such a big thing - maybe "Mein Kampf" is right, after all?

Just for example: torture was absolutely banned in the roman jurisdiction, because - as many contemporary commentators in the Codex Justinianus mention, you won't get reliable answers: given enough force one would admit to anything and its opposite just to make it stop. Compare that to what the inquisition did and how they routinely used torture of previously unseen extremity.

And where is a source for "having the 2 warridden millenias anyway"? If i beat you up, might i then claim that it was ineveitable one way or the other anyway? and exonerate myself that way?

On another angle: on Xmas we celebrate Jesus' birth. Now, this might be the true date or not, but that is not the point: if he ever lived he has to be born on some day. On the other hand, at easter we celebrate the day of Jesus' killing and resurrection. May i ask how that could be on another day every year?
I'm not a Christian, I don't believe in god, but jesus definitely existed.

@kingsgambit2883 said in #25:

I'm not a Christian, I don't believe in god, but jesus definitely existed.

Then, again, show ONE source backing up this claim.

@Nomen-Nonatur
I know for a fact that Tacitus mentioned a dude named "Christus", who founded a popular sect called Christianity and was executed by Pontius Pilate in Judea, in "Annals". Tacitus was a pretty reliable historian.

Wikipedia says that Josephus also mentions him in Antiquities, but I can't verify this, mainly because I really don't want to read Antiquities.

EDIT: For the record, I would like to point out that aggressive and mean-spirited mocking of the beliefs of others is worse than holding incorrect beliefs about the esoteric (at least on this plane). I realize that your responses were triggered by someone else's outrage, but still: please chill the fuck out and let Christians celebrate their holiday. Why not enjoy a nice cup of hot cocoa and watch "It's a Wonderful Life" or "Die Hard" with the family?

Now, @clousems at least tries to argue this point, fair enough.

@clousems said in #27:

@Nomen-Nonatur
I know for a fact that Tacitus mentioned a dude named "Christus", who founded a popular sect called Christianity and was executed by Pontius Pilate in Judea, in "Annals". Tacitus was a pretty reliable historian.

Tacitus is a pretty reliable hiostorian alright. Her was born in 56 AD, 20 years after Jesus' purported death. That is hardly a "contemporary" source. Furthermore, Tacitus (in the "Annals") mentions "Christ-hymns" being sung by early xtians. not a single mention of Jesus (or Christus) personally.

Wikipedia says that Josephus also mentions him in Antiquities, but I can't verify this, mainly because I really don't want to read Antiquities.

The "Jewish Antiquities" was issued 94 AD and is equally not exactly "contenporary". Josephus was born in 37 AD, also years after Jesus purported death.

The "Testimonium Flavianum" is known to be a falsification, probably from the 4th century..

@Nomen-Nonatur said in #28:

Now, @clousems at least tries to argue this point fair enough.

Tacitus is a pretty reliable hiostorian alright. Her was born in 56 AD, 20 years after Jesus' purported death. That is hardly a "contemporary" source. Furthermore, Tacitus (in the "Annals") mentions "Christ-hymns" being sung by early xtians. not a single mention of Jesus (or Christus) personally.

The "Annals" was published around 60 years after the events of the New Testament, so it's not like we're dealing with 200 years worth of corruption in information.
Prior to the Nero thing, there wasn't a whole lot of reason for historians to mention Christ. In the eyes of the Romans, he was just another cult leader in the world's largest and most religiously diverse empire.

The fact of the matter is that there's really no good reason to believe a guy named Jesus Christ did NOT found Christianity and get executed. I can provide a contemporary-ish source (see below) that supports the existence of a guy named Christus who fits the description of Jesus Christ to some degree. Sure, it's not a whole lot, but it's something. Do you have any better evidence to disprove me? If not, aren't YOU the one who is relying on some arbitrary myth?

As for not mentioning Christus, how do you explain this excerpt from chapter 44 book 15?

"Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. "

The "Jewish Antiquities" was issued 94 AD and is equally not exactly "contenporary". Josephus was born in 37 AD, also years after Jesus purported death.

The "Testimonium Flavianum" is known to be a falsification, probably from the 4th century..

Apparently, there's another mention of Christ in Josephus' work, but that's again just going off of the Wikipedia page. Since I'm not particularly knowledgeable on the subject, here's the link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

Imagine Jesus as a particle that can assume two states:

-Existed
-Didn't exist

What changes about the world when we switch it back and forth?