lichess.org

Creation vs. Atheism

@SpyroSE said:

> the part about morals, i don¨'t know what you're trying to get at, you don¨'t need
> religion to be a nice caring person helping those in need. in fact, doing that without
> a religious cause means that you care more geniuenly as opposed to someone
> who'd just do it to get to heaven.

If the only reason a person behaves morally is because of fear of eternal retribution in afterlife then this is not a "good" person but simply a frightened one.

See post #96 for a longer discussion about a foundation of morals without a religious base.

krasnaya

@SpyroSE

GOD IS like a pure psychopath

The Bible speaks against religion in the book of James 1:27

Pure religion and undefiled before God the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

The bible says 'The wages of sin is death'

Romans Chapter 6, Daniel 12
Romans 6:23
The payment for sin is death, but the gift that God freely gives is everlasting life found in Christ Jesus our Lord.

"If the only reason a person behaves morally is because of fear of eternal retribution in afterlife then this is not a "good" person but simply a frightened one."

*You're right.

The Holy Bible does not say the reward for sin is eternal retribution....well not quite...

Daniel Chapter 12:2 says
...that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt...

Daniel 12
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which stands for the children of your people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time your people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
___________________________________________________________________________________
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
____________________________________________________________________________________

3 And they that are wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars forever and ever.

4 But you, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.


Romans Chapter 6
1 What should we say then? Should we continue to sin so that God's kindness will increase? 2 That's unthinkable! As far as sin is concerned, we have died. So how can we still live under sin's influence? 3 Don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 When we were baptized into his death, we were placed into the tomb with him. As Christ was brought back from death to life by the glorious power of the Father, so we, too, should live a new kind of life. 5 If we've become united with him in a death like his, certainly we will also be united with him when we come back to life as he did. 6 We know that the person we used to be was crucified with him to put an end to sin in our bodies. Because of this we are no longer slaves to sin. 7 The person who has died has been freed from sin.

8 If we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, who was brought back to life, will never die again. Death no longer has any power over him. 10 When he died, he died once and for all to sin's power. But now he lives, and he lives for God. 11 So consider yourselves dead to sin's power but living for God in the power Christ Jesus gives you.

12 Therefore, never let sin rule your physical body so that you obey its desires. 13 Never offer any part of your body to sin's power. No part of your body should ever be used to do any ungodly thing. Instead, offer yourselves to God as people who have come back from death and are now alive. Offer all the parts of your body to God. Use them to do everything that God approves of. 14 Certainly, sin shouldn't have power over you because you're not controlled by laws, but by God's favor.

15 Then what is the implication? Should we sin because we are not controlled by laws but by God's favor? That's unthinkable! 16 Don't you know that if you offer to be someone's slave, you must obey that master? Either your master is sin, or your master is obedience. Letting sin be your master leads to death. Letting obedience be your master leads to God's approval. 17 You were slaves to sin. But I thank God that you have become wholeheartedly obedient to the teachings which you were given. 18 Freed from sin, you were made slaves who do what God approves of. 19 I'm speaking in a human way because of the weakness of your corrupt nature. Clearly, you once offered all the parts of your body as slaves to sexual perversion and disobedience. This led you to live disobedient lives. Now, in the same way, offer all the parts of your body as slaves that do what God approves of. This leads you to live holy lives.

20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from doing what God approves of. 21 What did you gain by doing those things? You're ashamed of what you used to do because it ended in death. 22 Now you have been freed from sin and have become God's slaves. This results in a holy life and, finally, in everlasting life.
___________________________________________________________________________________
23 The payment for sin is death, but the gift that God freely gives is everlasting life found in Christ Jesus our Lord.
_________________________________________________________________________________*

@SpyroSE
YOUR problem is you're stupid! stubborn...I mean slow...IMean

Im Juss T!KiddindinG

MY problem is I'd rather have sex than repent!

So What the fuck about THIS you gonna bitch about?!

(seriously, I'm just kidding. All good)
________________________________________________________________________________
last I heard from the Lord:

[Archaeon]
you glorify your own judgments while you defy my commands

Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii.................

I DO do that

I never even would have thought of that

Be better to glorify God

@BlackBishop9319

This is wrong:

- Atheist believe that billions if years ago, nothing exploded and made everything. The Earth started to cool down, and it started to rain on the rocks until it turned them into a complex chemical soup. And it took millions of years, but it came to life and evolved into the very complex living systems you see today. They believe that death brought man into the world, because in order for things to "evolve" it would first have to mutate, and the normal animals would have to die off in order not to mix the new gene with the old genes.


Atheism just means you do not believe there is any god. You can believe there is no god, and deny all the things.

We just take the first thing you think atheism is - "Atheist believe that billions if years ago, nothing exploded and made everything".

You can believe


There is no God and we have no idea where the universe came from and we will never know.

There is no God and we have no idea where the universe came from and we might know some day.

There is no God and the universe has existed for an infinite amount of time.

There is no God and time is not real, so the question how time started makes no sense.

And so on.

@Raspberry_yoghurt I made a mistake, putting atheist instead of evolutionist. But most atheists are evolutionists anyway.
So if I asked you how we got here, you would say "I don't know"?
That would be reasonable except that you haven't tried to know. I mean, by laws of logic, something had to have been here forever, something had to have designed this world, and that something has to be God.
A world like this is impossible to just start randomly. Atheist either have an anwser, evolution, or they just don't care about their future.

I'm on "we don't know yet, no idea if we ever will."

The physicists themselves haven't "finished" physics yet. They dpn't know what dark matter is, and the equations don't work for the very beginning of the big bang. So I'm like shrugs, and wait and see what they find out.

It might be it is impossible for us to sell - say if the only experiments that can decide the issue are so hard to make, we cannot make them.

"I mean, by laws of logic, something had to have been here forever, something had to have designed this world, and that something has to be God. "

There are many more possibilities. The world could have been designed by 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... n gods. To say 1 god and not 232 is random.

Furthermore, granted that we thing "something had to have designed this world" all we would be able to say was that the god or gods were present at the moment of designing, but we have no reason to think they would still be around.

The same way, if you see a painting, you can conclude "aha, a painter painted this", but you do not know if the painter still exists.

It could be the god/gods spend so much power designing the universe that the god/gods "died" from exhaustion. Or pherhaps the universe were designed by 9 gods, that then proceeded to kill each other off aftwerwards.

There is an infinite number of possibilities really.

@BlackBishop9319

"A world like this is impossible to just start randomly."

I don't see how you would know that. I mean, it's not like we have a lot of worlds and then we can sort them like "oh these ones are those that can start randomly, and those are those that can't. And now we see which group ours fit in. oh it is in the non random group."

There's only ONE world. so we have nothing to compare it to.

@Raspberry_yoghurt comment #156: If there were 2 gods, it would be a paradox. God means supreme being. There can't be more than 1 who is above all.
> "died from exhaustion." God can't die, much less from exhaustion. He is God! He has power of nature and is eternal.
Comment #157: The complexity of life is far too much to be random. The laws of gravity, the law in which the universe expands, the odds of everthing being perfectly combined for life to exist demands a creator. If any of the laws of our universe were a just slightly off, the universe would explode/implode, or life wouldn't exist.
So if you are looking at this world and still saying it apeared by chance, oh well.

@BlackBishop9319

"f there were 2 gods, it would be a paradox. God means supreme being. There can't be more than 1 who is above all."

Well I meant god here in the context of "the entity that created the universe."

What you said, there are two possibilities; either the universe has been here forever, or it was created at one point.

That the universe was created at one point does not mean that only ONE entity created it at all.

The same way that because we know a Stonehange was designed, that does not mean we now know "only one guy designed Stonehenge". It might have been any number of guys that designed it - maybe one guy picked the stones, another one decided how they should be arranged, another guy picked the spot where it should be built. We have no idea about the number of designers involved.

We also cannot say,"because an entity designed the world, this means the entity is still here."

We have no idea if entities that designs worlds keep existing or not. I don't see why you would even think you had one?

The to "what god means". This is just a definition, what some people have decided to understand by the word. A definition is not real knowledge of anything - we can definy words like "Spiderman" and then talk about Spiderman, this does not mean that Spiderman is now real. So you can't just say "there is a word god that we use in certain ways, and this means we know what god is like".

@BlackBishop9319

"Comment #157: The complexity of life is far too much to be random. The laws of gravity, the law in which the universe expands, the odds of everthing being perfectly combined for life to exist demands a creator. If any of the laws of our universe were a just slightly off, the universe would explode/implode, or life wouldn't exist.
So if you are looking at this world and still saying it apeared by chance, oh well."

Well, no matter how the universe was, the odds of it being in that way would be low I guess. So that means, even if the world imploded and nothing was well combined for life to exist and so on, you could still say "hey what are the odds the universe has exactly these shitty laws of gravity, there must be a creator."

Reconnecting