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When do you guys think that your opponent could be dishonest?

@Onyx_Chess You wrote “How about you help me shout down that speech instead?”

How about you not shout down any speech at all but instead make a civil rebuttal — preferably of less than 2,000 words — and then simply move on?

I started with a civil rebuttal.
I took the time to produce a well thought out video.

All of this is in contention is in response to that "civil rebuttal".

With that said, when things people say practically multiplies cheating, multiplies suspicion, produces a hostile atmosphere where people who would otherwise be friends are instead suspicion and prove animus to one another, then that speech should be discouraged and corrected.

It's not lost on me that it's been absolutely nothing but ad hominem in response to that initial perfectly civil argument.

That video could not possibly have been more clear and concise.
If you don't get the point, it's because you don't want to.

Apparently you wouldn't recognize a civil argument if it jumped up and smacked the dunce cap off of your head.

@Onyx_Chess is right. at 2000+ level the amount of cheaters is arround 1%, Or 0% if you play with the same 50 or so people you know for years. He is also very insightful and understands the problem of Salem cheater Trilas in the forum.
Onyx, what I don't understand is, why are you bothering with these clowns?

@Onyx_Chess Just couldn’t stay away from a nasty insult at the end of your comment, could you? LOL.

You wrote: “I started with a civil rebuttal.” Would that be the comment where you told someone he had “feces in his eye”?

You wrote: “... then that speech should be discouraged and corrected.” Um, who died and left you king? This performance of yours has got to be one of the most pompous, self-aggrandizing things I’ve ever seen in these forums. Where do you get the nerve to tell, as you did last night, a fellow member of Lichess what he should and should not discuss here and command, like a self-appointed potentate, that he take his comments to another chess website?

As others have already stated, your strutting about and boasts of honor and integrity are laughable in their absence of self-knowledge. You have an opinion — nothing but — and you have been resorting to ugly insults when anyone disagrees with you.

I watched your video last night. It was bad and I want my 20 minutes back. Based on nothing but a few
comments on Reddit, the presenter works up a sweeping generalization that you, for some reason, are fully vested in. News flash: Even if no one ever talked about cheating, cheating would still take place and, in my opinion, at a level not much different from what we have now.

You have a different opinion. I get it. Good for you.

@Morozov

Firstly, thank you for taking time to offer your words.

Secondly, I wasn't so much addressing the people taking contention, as I was cross-examining them and using them to inform the good people of Lichess, the 'casual onlookers', like yourself.

The discussion around this topic has been causing nothing but more problems for years, and it's high-tide that we act intelligently, within our best interest, and put an end to it.

It's never been made obvious how much damage simply raising suspicion creates, so I wanted to make that case as clearly and as thoroughly as possible.

If I can provide a more productive narrative and a more effective way of addressing the matter, then that's something that I feel is worth a few of my minutes, some energy, and some of my nerves.

A few days ago I saw someone else say: "The suspicion does more damage than the cheaters."

The point should be piled on and repeated, ad nauseum, as an example of the new status quo of intellect around here.
The idea is profound. The idea is effective. The idea is correct. The idea produces nothing but good.

"The suspicion does more damage than the cheaters." < - - - Yes - It - Does.
"The suspicion does more damage than the cheaters." < - - - Very - Well - Put.
"The suspicion does more damage than the cheaters." < - - - Stated - Flawlessly.
"The suspicion does more damage than the cheaters." < - - - Can't - Be - Said - Enough.
"The suspicion does more damage than the cheaters." < - - - This - Can't - Be - Overstated.

I took the time because this is a change in narrative that is completely worthwhile.

I'm here to contribute constructively and productively if I have the means to do so.

-

Right out the gate, the contentious voices have engaged in 100% logical fallacies (mostly red-herring), and have spent 0% of their time arguing the opposition; in doing so, intellectually speaking, they have waved the white flag right out the gate.

Moving forwards, when they can't elicit a response from me, they'll know that it's not because I'm defeated, but because they've served my purpose.

-

Again, thanks for taking the time, Morozov.

May you see the board well, and may your pieces find the very best squares.

@GSP0113 The difference between his opinion and yours is that his is well informed and generally accepted among expierienced players. Your right to "free speech" does not mean anyone has to listen to wild BS and accept it as anything even resembling valid. There is a good reason why cheaters are reported directly to mods and not discussed on the forums.

@Morozov That’s a half-truth. Of course suspected cheaters should never be mentioned on forums. No one disagrees with that. The point of contention here is whether cheating, generally, should be discussed on the forums. I think there’s a place for such discussion. Obviously you and @Onyx_Chess don’t.

We disagree. Fine. Disagreement is part of life. What I find offensive is when someone goes on a nasty 2,000-word rant acting like he has some divine authority or when someone labels those they disagree with as “clowns.” Or, worse, when someone thinks it is his duty to “shout down” (his words, not mine) people with different opinions.

<coughnothat'snotthepointatallcoughanotherstrawmancough100%logicalfallaciescough>

@Onyx_Chess You need a glass of water?

You’re trying to argue now that you HAVEN’T been opposing discussions of cheating on these forums? Seriously?

From your 2,000-word manifesto last night:

“With all that said, the BEST discussions about cheating are all at cheatcom, I mean chess.com. ... You should definitely go over there and type the word "cheat" as many times as you can over there. ... Go do that. Over there. ... Play chess here at Lichess with the non-cheaters. Talk about cheaters over there at cheat.com.”

Reconnecting