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Sandbagging issue in casual games??

Hello you.
Well, yes, the ego in me certainly wants you to all agree with me - because surely it's not just me playing badly, right?! - of course not! - Sure, that's part of the equation no doubt, but there's still something fishy going on sometimes that bugs me possibly more than it should. The easiest solution here is for me to simply ignore it, chill out, move on, maybe play another game, enjoy myself, generally take it less seriously (after all, my issue here is just with the casual games). Only problem is, you're talking to a guy who when opening his eyes first thing each morning is accompanied by a melodically themed inner monologue of that Laurel&Hardy-esque muted trombone wah-wah-wah sound effect, which manages inevitably to sum up each forthcoming day. ie, chilling out, relaxing, etc are just not viable options for me after being subjected to a sandbagging.

That said - here's my perception of the issue...

I'm currently about 1800 rated (on rapid), fluctuating 100 or so either side. When I play the rated games, I feel that the vast majority of opponents are pretty much equally matched. - which makes perfect sense as whether you win or lose, the rating will automatically modify itself to reflect your level of play. So, excluding the sandbaggers on the rated games, mainly we're gonna be well matched and have a good game.

Conversely though, this of course doesn't apply to the casual games. So the issue of unbalanced games will inevitably become amplified the more we play casually without playing rated games in between. That is, over a period of time usually our games improve with practise, and I should imagine very rarely get worse. Hence, the perception of our opponents being sandbaggers. But the reality is (I guess) that the vast majority of these players are only inadvertently sandbagging as a result of a lack of rated games, as opposed to purposely doing it for whatever reason. So, as the sandbagging community goes, these ones have the upper moral hand. But, saying that, it does still produce unbalanced and sometimes frustrating games whether this is a product of active or passive sandbagging - the results for their opponents being the same, which is usually a frustrating loss from a supposedly balanced game.

When I play a game via the lobby, I usually specify +- 500, which keeps me on my toes, but also allows me a bit of well earned breathing space every so often when those lower rated games come in. Only thing is though - a lot of the time they don't.

Sure, I'm inevitably gonna lose a certain percentage of games to someone rated genuinely 500 lower than me. In fact, it's not that uncommon, BUT it certainly shouldn't be this many. Without a doubt I will lose to 3 or 4 times as many equally rated players on the casual mode than I will on the rated one. - which to me suggests that the sandbagging issue definitely exists, in whatever its forms.

So... tediously academic observations and corresponding moaning aside, I've taken the liberty of suggesting a possible solution (regarding the casual games anyway). --

- Maybe after a certain amount of casual games in a row (without playing any rated games at all), where a significant improvement would be pretty much a certainty, let's say 1000 games or something, - we shouldn't be able to continue with the casual games until we've done at least 1 rated game. I imagine that only a small minority of people (the people who actively sandbag on purpose) would simply throw the game, but the overwhelming majority of us being generally good sports would just play the game as best we can, just like any other game. This would level out a huge proportion of those frustratingly unbalanced games, as most people with a misleading rating just probably haven't even realised they've got so much better.

My next lecture will be on the subject of when people clearly write way too much for a forum post.

END OF ESSAY
Sorry HrishikeshM, I should have explained.

Sandbagging is when a player loses games on purpose to lower their ratings. Subsequently, this makes games easier for them to win - as when Lichess matches them with an opponent, the opponent's actual rating matches only the sandbagger's "perceived" rating, but in reality the sandbagger is a better player.
It's considered to be unsporting behaviour, and certainly Lichess quite rightly frowns upon such activity.

The main reason for people sandbagging is so they can enter tournaments that have a maximum rating limit, where their actual level of play is higher, but their perceived rating falls under that maximum limit (because of the games that they've lost on purpose) so they are able to join the tournament. This gives them an unfair advantage, which practically denies players the chance to win who's ratings are genuinely lower than the maximum to enter the tournament.

For the sandbaggers though, it's really a pointless exercise. Even if they do win, they only would have won by having an unfair advantage from the start. TBH I'm not really sure what compels people to do it - Why play a whole tournament just to get a virtual trophy that essentially only represents one's own disingenuous play. -- Alternatively, maybe the reason is so they can take a screenshot of their winning position to show their friends -- but, and I don't know about you, but when I'm particularly pleased with how I've played in a particular game, maybe against someone of a much higher rating for instance, I'm sometimes quite excited to show the highlights to my wife - Invariably though, she's not necessarily as excited to see them! I suppose being pleased with oneself and looking for plaudits isn't necessarily in the spirit of our development and understanding of the great game!
- and that is the very thing that confuses me about the whole matter - how could someone be so inclined to dedicate themselves to reach such a level of attainment, only to then masquerade as a weaker player, just to play easier opponents???! It just doesn't make sense.

Hey, d'you know what - on reading this back before I click the submit button, I feel almost compelled to think about quitting sandbagging myself, but then again, how would I ever win?
I have read all that and i have some points i'd like to say:

1. I agree with you, but it is hard to find someone who is sandbagging, as someone may be playing honestly, and getting unlucky.
2. This post needs to be read by others, so they can know of they're unintentionally sandbagging... like i was (i hate playing rated cuz i ALWAYS lose)
3. You really make another extremely long forum post on extremely long forum posts and how boring they are
@Save-Ferris said in #3:
> Sorry HrishikeshM, I should have explained.

I think youre less sorry for not explaining and more sorry that you couldn't double the length of your post ;)
Hello again,
yes, let me respond to your points...

1. no doubt, this happens - as 99+% people on this site are genuinely good sports, but there's more than a fine line between the honest players that are just having a bad streak, and players that are dropping 300-400 rating points. I think it's expected that we can all drop 100-150 points here and there, I certainly have done that myself on bad days / weeks, but it's no doubt suspicious when it's significantly more than that. Also, the Lichess algorithm picks up on this sort of stuff anyway - I imagine it usually gets it right and is able to differentiate between the behaviour of the honest players and the rest.

Also, I just noticed that you were viewing the last game I played - The player was rated "1500?" but quite easily had the better of me, and I'm 1800+. Sometime's this is just the way it goes, maybe due to styles of play, or one side being tired and the other being awake etc etc - but that's chess right. But my point is that I wonder how long this guy has been playing as a 1500. As it's got a question mark after it, it suggests that they've never played a rated game in this category - whether they're new to Lichess or indeed have been playing for years - Hence my suggestion that a rated game after a certain period of time should be something we all should do to level out those ratings anomalies. No judgement here on anybody's part, just aiming to pursue a more balanced experience for all. (In this case though, I'm sure my opponent just played a good game and got me fair and square).

2. good point about staying on casual cos of that feeling of losing rated games - which is exactly why I've discovered the benefit of the casual ones too in recent times. Maybe I've been playing casually now for a couple of months? - and may well have marginally improved - probably slightly anyway. But I don't think you or I would be regarded as unintentionally sandbagging though - but if we were to only play casual for 1000s of games, then maybe that would be different? We'd probably improve significantly in the mean time so therefore should really do a few rated ones so that other opponents can have a good idea of our standards before they decide to play us, or indeed, get matched with us.

But if we are always losing on the rated games, then the rating will decrease, and we'll subsequently be matched with similar ranked players and then we wont lose so much and have a more matched and fun game. No need to be self conscious about the ratings - they're just for reference - and this is a really good site in that people are generally friendly and supportive and without judgement in my experience. Easier said than done though, isn't it. - I know exactly how you feel.

3. Yes -after I finished saying everything on that previous post I realised I'd really gone on for ages, so I did a sort of meta joke in reference to it - really to diffuse any reading fatigue people may have consequently acquired in the process of getting through what turned out to be a rather laborious and drawn out dissertation. I can only apologise. I'll keep it short next time - much like this post, right?

Until later my friend...
@Save-Ferris, ain't your posts too long to read? (especially for a lazy dude for me)
I think you need to compress the posts.
(pls don't reply with a long post, I am not ready to read it)
@HrishikeshM said in #5:
> I think youre less sorry for not explaining and more sorry that you couldn't double the length of your post ;)

Ha! yeah, you got me. - but I just made up for it in another reply I just posted to you.

Cheers mate
@infinite2009 said in #7:
> @Save-Ferris, ain't your posts too long to read? (especially for a lazy dude for me)
> I think you need to compress the posts.
> (pls don't reply with a long post, I am not ready to read it)

Yeh, they WERE the compressed versions!
@Save-Ferris said in #8:
> Ha! yeah, you got me. - but I just made up for it in another reply I just posted to you.
>
> Cheers mate

Cheers

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