I don't give a rat's furry ass who you are. If you're such a genius then when you post a link you specify page=2 where your first post on the thread resides. Over several threads I've had HUNDREDS of respondents, many whose writing is so verbose that their one answer is an essay. Do you really think I have an OBLIGATION to read every Tom, Dick, and Harry's response? Funkmaus is the only person who has thought about what it's like to hold an opinion that maybe a hundred guys weigh in on against me.
The really funny thing is that most of the threads on the Forum are almost content free. You should feel happy that someone got your juices flowing. Premove is DISGRACEFUL.
I love how your debate is always so logical and that you're the one getting attacked. Oh wait, you're the one who starts throwing in emotion and insults and then making yourself stressed and in a position where you're like this. No I don't think you're obligated, and no I'm not the one who's supposed to be courteous to you. If you read what I said, I didn't say it was that page, I said it was that forum because our debate ran over the course of 6 pages. So if you're gonna be an asshole about your misunderstanding then maybe lichess and the horribly illiterate, idiotic, illogical, incomprehensible community is something you should cut out of your life. People like you make the online chess community horrible because you feel like in order to prove you're confident and almighty you have to take on everybody else. I'm glad you stand by something, but you act like an unprincipled teenager. One little pushback to you and you start crying and whining.
And you obviously don't want to fix the problem. You want to just complain about your issue over and over again. If you don't remember our debate, which went back and forth and used quotes from each other that had valid analysis, then do you actually retain any information? You're not convincing anybody or proposing any solutions besides "PREMOVES BAD! REMOVE PREMOVE!" Your biggest fallacy is that you won't accept that OTB chess and Online Chess are not the same game, but simply adhere to the same fundamental rules of the game. So stop being a baby and grow up.
@Eleuthero Since you continuously keep referring to the three points you made in your reply #29 and saying nobody's addressed them, let me respond to them directly.
Point I : "Premove is touching your pieces before the opponent has moved which is illegal OTB"
A) Online chess and OTB share some rules, and if taken in broad strokes they are similar, but when we get down to the specifics, they are completely bloody different. For example, let me illustrate by listing some things which are illegal OTB yet are allowed and commonly practiced in online chess
-speaking with the opponent
-speaking with other people or oneself
-adding time to the opponent's clock
-playing naked or insufficently clothed
-grabbing your own and your opponent's pieces with no intention of moving them
-calling your opponent nasty names
-breaking objects in a fit of rage
-riding a bus or other form of transportation
-sitting on the toilet
-recording and playing your chess game for people on the internet
I'm sure you see why comparing OTB and online rules is a fallacy.
B) Premove is not exactly "touching" your pieces. In OTB touching the pieces during your opponent's turn is forbidden (except for "I adjust") because it would be a distraction for the opponent. Online, this is not the case. This also shouldn't be considered as touching pieces, as online you are free to grab and drag any piece without being forced to move it, which as we know, is not the case OTB.
Thus, the comparison to correspondence is far better, wherein premove becomes a sort of "if any, then..." instruction.
Point II : "Premove makes the clock meaningless"
No, it doesn't. You say that you lost on time, having 15 seconds versus your opponent's 2, ergo premoves are unfair. If having more time on the clock should automatically mean a win by zeitnot, then the game might as well end as soon as one player acquires a time advantage. This, as we know, does not happen.
A time advantage, just like one in material, can be lost if not handled carefully. You lost on time because your opponent was significantly faster than you. Premove doesn't take time, because the player locked in their move before they even saw the position. If premoves were a cheat which allowed someone to see the position, think and then move having used up no time, they would indeed nullify the clock. Again, this is not the case. Premoves are a tradeoff. If you use them intelligently and dexterously you can win time scrambles, even when way down on time. And if the opponent knows that premoves are what you will rely on, they can take advantage of that accordingly. That is not something to scoff at, but something to cherish.
Point III : "Premoves give legitimacy to bullet and hyper bullet, which are shallow"
First of all, shallow doesn't mean anything, objectively. If it is your opinion that they are shallow, fine, but don't try to pass that by us as a fact of life. It is not. Next, people who don't like those formats, and I fully accept that they are not for everyone, are free not to play them and can enjoy other time controls instead.
Third, many players enjoy fast games. They may not be the most skill-intensive in terms of pure chess knowledge and ability, but they are an adrenaline rush, and an enjoyable passtime. Again, not for everyone, but quite obviously many people enjoy them.
Just because they don't often produce games that are worth putting in textbooks (although some top level bullet games can still be quite instructive) , doesn't make them not worthwhile, God forbid "illegitimate" which you implied, by saying that premove "makes them appear legit".
Why would they not be "legit"? What doed "legit" even mean to you, in this context?
Adding to A).. let's not forget drawing arrows on the board, seeing the influence of various pieces marked on the board, automatic claims of a draw, automatic queen promotions, sound alerts when time is critical, illumination of a checked king and playing someone at a distance who is using a different board to represent the game.
Regardless, I'm not sure it matters that you addressed his three points. I already addressed them and he ignored it. He then redefined the meaning of rebuttal by claiming it doesn't count if you "change the focus of attention" - even though there is no way to address misguided claims without "changing the focus of attention".
I don't think i've ever seen eluethero address someone's counter points. He usually just repeats his first points, complains people don't know how to argue, tells a personal story, or calls people names.
#53 Great post, loved it.
Now this thread is getting educational to me - and I think, it deserves a separate topic!
What an amazing summary about differencies between online and OTB; one more point: people are playing drunk online sometimes while OTB its forbidden. :0
Let me address some of your points:
-speaking with other people or oneself
THAT happens. Several people are speaking with oneself when playing, like moving mouth or so, its rather funny.
Speaking with other people is obvious, walking and talking when its not their turn. :)
-playing naked or insufficently clothed
Oh, I remember bringing my not-chess-playing girl-friends once to the OTB-tournament and they said that they seldom see such a bad-dressed crowd of people. (no further discussion needed at this point, please).
-screaming, -swearing, -calling your opponent nasty names, -breaking objects in a fit of rage
Some people have their emotions not under control.
Its probably easier to misbehave hiding under an anonyme handle online, but sadly, it happens OTB as well.
Edit: I have said nothing to the topic itself.
I have no strong opinion about premoving. I do use them in bullet and blitz.
I think its impossible to play fast chess without using them when opponent does.
Adapt or die?!
Still I do enjoy the games when both sides dont premove on mutual agreement.
I have played series of games with friends on another server in 1+0 when we both disabled premove.
Its fine either way... :)
A lot of good stuff here, thank you, all.
In spite of being hard to defend, @Eleuthero 's #29 is one of the top three or so important posts. The bedrock.. fact #1 touching pieces etc. : the argument, premove's legitimacy could be questioned by comparison to the otb rules. No more, no less. Have otb rules been suspended, discarded, dilated too light-heartedly in online?
#2 clock halway to meaningless
There used to be mate and clock, and now there is a new force, capable of suspending the clock. Time as a factor is getting warped. Fair or unfair?
#3 (as I understand it) premove and bullet are in a symbiosis capable of eroding meaning from chess.
I am not saying these points have not been adressed scrupoulusly, but maybe they haven't been adressed in the most well-willing and appreciating way. The avantgarde like the grumpiest and fiercest smiles when she or he is mated in chess. (Edit: and low-keys like me ;) Let us all be as friendly and fair as our game
Thanks for addressing my 3 points. I enjoyed your assertion that premove and bullet are "in a symbiosis capable of eroding meaning from chess." Well said! I never play bullet nor do I watch it even if two super-GMs are playing it. Bullet is the singular form of chess where even GMs drop pieces like patzers. I've never understood the appeal of it and, frankly, it wouldn't exist without the Internet and premove.
When Fischer was around, blitz was 5 minutes which is long enough such that when good players are playing it, the positions and moves generally aren't absurd. Now, 5 minute is slower than FIVE forms of chess (hyperbullet, 1|0 bullet, 2|1 bullet, 3|0 blitz, and 3|2 blitz). If you had told an old 20th century master that this is what would happen to chess I doubt they would even believe you.
@Eleuthero Pretending he can't see. Well, I gave you what you wanted - a direct answer to your 3 points. So what's up, little buddy?
@h2b2 You were so right it's not even funny.